Harley-Davidson Stock Takes Another Hit
"They may be macho but they're not immune," reports Forbes in an AP-sourced story. "Harley-Davidson riders, like other consumers, are curbing their spending amid the credit crisis and economic uncertainty."
The Financial Times and Dow Jones are also reporting a chink in Harley-Davidson's armor, as HOG stocks dipped 9.2% today on the heels of an announcement that less motorcycles than expected will be shipped during the third quarter of this year. Third quarter production numbers-- between 86,000 to 88,000 bikes-- are below an earlier estimate of 91,000 to 95,000, which will put this year's estimated total production at 5.5% lower than 2006's numbers.
Financial analysts can toss around as many numbers as they like, but I'm curious to hear the thoughts of Harley enthusiasts (and likewise, Harley skeptics) about plans for future bike purchases. Do you think Harley sales will continue to dip in the face of the current economic climate, or will the all-American manufacturer bounce back faster than you can say potato-potato-potato?
Feel free to comment with your thoughts on Harley-Davidson's future.
Photo © Harley-Davidson
Comments
I think H-D will continue to expand into overseas markets to offset the US difficulties.
Their problem is how to “change” a classic, iconic image without alienating their traditional US client base..and since the bikes ARE well built, there’s less incentive to trade-in for the “latest model.”
All recreational vehicles so to speak are taking a hit.. I think HD will survive but take a hit. People are less likely to buy a boat, a motorcycle, an RV, waht have you.
I hit return too soon… H-D is wisely targeting the expanding female rider market with lowered bikes, garage nights, and an extensive assortment of riding gear and casual apparel in a wide range of sizes. I don’t ride an H-D myself but they are a bit ahead of the game in this arena.
I will argue all day long that the FLSTC is the icon of American motorcycles, but I’m only buying ONE. Any additions to my garage would be a Star Stratoliner and/or a Victory Vision. As far as accessories go, I’m not HD loyal and sought out other companies, like Fox Creek for leathers, that are far superior than HD products. Also, I’m getting interested other activities like sailing. So my point is that I’m 46 years old and HD isn’t getting much more of my money. Anyone else feel that way? Wall Street does.
Here’s another thought: just like there will be a larger supply of stocks and bonds once the early boomers start cashing out their IRA and 401k accounts in a few years, there could be a flood of used Harleys hitting the market once those same people realize that can’t handle a 700+ lb. bike any more. If that happens, I don’t care how much was “invested” in chrome, prices will become very elastic.
Sorry to continue, but does anyone know the statistics on Gen X or Gen Echo HD buyers? My youngest brother just turned 40 (a rather old gen x)and no one he knows is even interested in motorcycles.
Unrelated, but I was in Dallas a couple of weeks ago and I saw the same guy filling up his Boss Hog for a run down Lower Greenville that I used to see when I lived there five years ago. Little fellow, idiot bike.
I’ve bought 6 new harleys in the last 8 years. Never paid more than MSRP. Value of my used motorcyles have dropped at least $3,000 or more but, dealers are still asking MSRP. well with the values dropping, if the dealers want to sell motorcyles they are going to have to at least spilt that difference in my opion
The market for H-D machines may be hitting a saturation point. THe Gen x ers are into ultra-fast sport bikes and view the H-D culture as something their parents are into. The other problem is that the big 4 Japanese makers are building cruiser bikes that work as well or better than the beloved air-cooled V-twin. Harley has improved their products enormously in recent years but so has every other manufacturer. I hope H-D continues to thrive.
The credit and mortgage industry crunch are changing consumer buying habits drastically, especially for non-essentials, like recreation purchases.
Genx and baby boomers are moving toward touring and sport touring styles. I agree with Rich C, Harley may be hitting the saturation point in style and offerings. They are very well made, there’s no doubt, but it boils down to trends and I don’t belive HD has kept with the growing trends of stylized, modern bikes. Many boomers are trading their harleys for smoother, more quiet and more comfortable touring and sport touring bikes.
The custom chopper craze of the past five years is on the way out. The television shows that hyped this trend are experiencing a drop in viewer ratings and being replaced by shows about sportier riding styles.
HD needs to keep up with the trend and do something with the Vrod motor by placing it in next generaton styles, much like the Victory Vision.
The whole powersports industry is down and the strong players will survive at the other end with new styles and bikes that can be ridden comfortably every day and all day for a reasonable price.
I’m 59, have had bikes since 15; one H-D back in the 70s. Same bike is sold today’ nothing new except rubber mounted engine and, only recently, EFI. I thought I’d like another H-D and got close to getting a sportster during their low interest promotion this summer. Heavy hunk of iron, slow. The dealer was too greedy, not willing to negotiate the exorbitant freight&setup ($1100). I really didn’t like the whole vibe including the HOG circus act at the dealership. I said screw it and bought a better bike (Suzuki V-Strom) -lighter, faster, quieter. Unless H-D gets a waiver from EPA they’ll have to start building lighter, liquid-cooled motorcycles Stuff the Japanese have been doing for 40 years.
HOG Stock will bounce back due to overseas need. (Former Pres) Rich Teerlink once told me they have a much larger market overseas than in the US. They’ll sell every mcy they’ll build allthough they’ll now build less. PS liquid cooling has to be in HD’s future.
rich mans toy poor mans dream but i sill love them
Harley Davidson will survive of a long time to come! I do not own a Harley (wife does) but I think the overseas deals will keep them up for a while. They are making changes to their lineup that is positive but if you look at other bikes that are being introduced HD is still behind in technology and power. My stock Victory 92 inch motor makes more torque than the HD 103 inch kit. Same for most of the Japanese bikes. When baby boomers like myself stop buying HD they had better come up with some new idea for the Gen-X buyers! The old style is starting to disappear with the younger crowd and being replaced with the more sporty crotch rocket/sport touring bikes.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. HD is making a lot of improvements, and that’s encouraging.
But there are at least two things that have to happen for HD to remain viable; 1)get the point across to dealers that no dealer is doing a favor to a customer by selling him or her a bike, (as a lot of them apparently believe) its the other way around, and 2) they have to lower prices, so that people can see that the bikes from Japan, which by most OBJECTIVE criteria are technically and mechanically superior, are not also lower priced than HD.
After all, styling and potato potato only go so far.
HD would be wise to solve the EPA/noise/overheat/lots less stock power than could be obtained without any extra money at the manufactuer level issues, or it will only get to be a bigger and bigger problem.
Foreign bikes look so much like a HD and at half the price which makes them more afordable. HD stands firm on msrps and accesories and with so many other options in the marketplace they are going to take a hit. The bigger they are the harder they fall. HD either needs to make a better bike to justify the higher cost or get more competitive in the market. I own two and hate to see more foreign product here, but HD is going to have to re-think their market position
In the local paper alone there are 24 Harleys with low miles for sale. I see less people dripping with everything Harley all over their bodies. Myself, putting everything Harley on Ebay and bought a new Honda..more value for the money. As the guy above says, the HOG circus is almost comical.
What is going on with HD is that they are not listening to their current or potential buyers. Sad as it is, HD and their chosen dealers have done this to themselves. The people have spoken and they have meant it. HD engineering along with their dealers should check these two sites out and PAY ATTENTION if they want to survive as they know it. http://www.coolclimbing.com/2007harleydavidsonroadkingclassi.htm AND http://www.HDFORUM.com
These are only a couple of what I’ve read. As for forbes, they voted Victory the best American bike and I payed attention.
Brazil is full of Japanese motorcycles everywhere, I have my 07 Glide Classic that makes difference anywhere I go. Looks like is the same sentiment for you guys in the US. Well actually for big powered machines as HD, prices here are much more interesting for HD. Compared to local brazilian currency the new Honda 1000 launched here costs some 52,000 reais if by installment has lots of interests, my FLHTC 1584 cc costed some 67,000 reais. (I have not paid a cent of interest) A Honda 1800 costs here some 120,000 reais almost the double price of FLHTC FLHTCUI. So in my opinion I made a good investment buying my HD FLHTC with radio-cd for listening during my rides. A lot of japanese bikes riders here complain about their backs pain after 3 to 4 hours riding, it doesn’thappen with Harley Davidons styles. I’m very very happy with HD and hope to be with my bike for a long time. I’m 46 yrs old.
Rgds fm Brazil
Decio
HD has gotten to where they are not on bike technology but by marketing smarts. they sell a dream, image, concept, lifestyle, not a motorcycle. Will they survive, no doubt about it. they are flexible in marketing their product even though not their price. i drove a road king, now a VFR. the VFR is ten times the bike, and i can drive at any speed in comfort, safety, double the mileage, and with little service, plus almost half the weight, and price. But that is my personal choice. Here is vegas is is whatever you bring it is all good. I wish them the best, as i do any manufacturer.
HD is over priced and over rated. The only thing they have that is any good is the V-rod. HD needs to look at their bikes and do something. I hate to say they are in the same as the American Auto makers. I now own a Nissan truck A Toyota auto and a Yamaha Royal Star Venture. The car and truck are U.S. made. As a union member member I see the unions killing the auto makers and HD falls into this. Who knows what will happen.
HD has got to wake up and start building the bikes us senior citizens want! 60+ years. I rode HD bikes for 16 years. My last bike was a FLHTCU with all the bells and whistles. 900 lbs of heavy, slow, hot sitting at Florida stop lights, motorcycle.
Last May I purchased a (Suzuki) Burgman 650 scooter. It weighs 1/2, costs me 1/3 the HD price, is smoother at 65mph, water cooled, auto transmission, fuel injection, and gets 50-60 mpg. I can wash and wax in 15 minutes or less. Insurance is 1/2 what the HD cost. And its so quiet my neighbors don’t see me riding into the neighborhood. Best of all Everyone Waves!
I love Harleys, although I ride a Yamaha V-Star 1100, which is a terrif cmorotcycle. I disagree with the H-D bashers, these are indeed beautiful m/cs that epitomize the cruiser. Go to your local charity rides and see what they are riding. H-D is King, baby, even though right now it is not in my budget!
Hey Caper Johnny–
wake up and smell the Roses–The only thing HD does is put on more chrome–the engine sucks and runs hot and will cook your leggs. Why do have a Yamaha–get tired of walking–Why do you look in the newspaper and see only harley`s for sale–they wised up and now trying th get rid of the heartbreak of america–I had a HD and glad I got rid of that hunk of junk.—Yes you see a bunch of want a be`s on HD–they want to be a bad ass or Hell`s Angle. HD IS OVER PRICED AND OVER RATED___FACE IT
G.B is a dork. Harley is and will ALWAYS be the King of Motorcycles. It’s the greatest American business success story of them all. I’ve been riding Harley’s since the 80’s and just bought a 2007 Vrod. Raced a Ducati last week..couldn’t keep up. Keep buying Japanese product and talking down American. Great thinking you freekin loser…
H-Ds have, and had, japanese carbs (Kiehin, Mikuni), speedo, starters, and forks. Your V-Rod may have a Showa fork. The V-rod is a beautiful bike with help from both Germany (Porsche) and japan.
H-D is a corporation and as such will maximize profit to the fullest extent. Their marketing is a success story in itself but that shouldn’t allow the wool to be pulled over one’s eyes.
I don’t ride with a group but when I do it’s mostly BMW, FJRs, STs.
Harely guy…
“The greatest American business success story of all”??
As compared to what!!?? GM, FORD & Chrysler are hemorrhaging money so fast they’ve run out of red ink. It’s hardly a success to make it past their track record. Almost everyone else in the forum so far has nailed it. H-D has to wake up and start building a quality product at a reasonable price. They don’t appear to be able to spell those concepts, much less manage them.
Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha & Toyota are successful not because of any sort of hocus pocus, black magic or underhanded business practice…..it’s a quality product at a fair price.
H-D is on it’s way down the tubes just like most other American car & MC businesses.
Buell has finally built a sport bike that might actually work and sell…guess how much of the bike was built by H-D? That would be NONE…not so much as bolt or washer.
Dinosaurs…..this time it won’t take a comet.
Harley uses Japanese carburetors, (Kiehin) speedos, starters and front shocks (Showa). With the exception of the V-Rod (porsche collaboration) they’re only a single pin crank, push rod, single cam, air-cooled, low compression engine. If folks could cast an objective eye at what H-D sells and realize they are only buying an image or an icon with a hefty price tag they might actually get more value for their money. IMO, and as an engineer, an H-D can not be compared technically w/ most Japanese bikes. In fact, if you look at the technology invested in a Honda CBR600 it would be the equivalent to a Maserati or Lamborghini. No stock V-rod can ever beat any stock 600cc 120hp 360lb motorcycle.
Hey Harley Guy–Get on that HD crap and ride it to the junk yardor save it as yard bird feeder.–You are like a lot of HD owners. You like the bike but, HD are not getting or looking to the future–Buell has seen the light–HD needs to pull it`s head out of the sand. The Future and time will pass it by. HEY hARLEY BOY–get a life–and don`t buy HD stock–and go back to work at the HD factory–dork
I think Harley-Davidson will bounce back faster then you can start one and they are an instant starting machine.
One day I will have a Harley even though right now I just bought a Honda, only because for the first time in my life at age 55 I have learned to ride a motorcycle.
After, America is “baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Harley-Davidson”.
Thank You!!!
No doubt H-D will be around in one form or another. It’s an icon but not necessarily a sophisticated machine nor uniquely American, many Japanese parts on an H-D -starter, the older carbrators (Kiehin), speedo/tach, cast mag wheels and front forks (Showa). I have two brothers, one who went into debt for 7 years @$275 a month and another for $20K for H-Ds. Motorcycles each have their own appeal, though cruisers have none for me. I want acceleration, canyon carving handling and engineering sophistication. H-D doesn’t offer any of those things though it is a venerable machine and continues to appeal to less sophisticated riders. It’s a unique thrill to ride one, the sound, look and vibration. Most of the older guys who have gotten into really riding are buying FJRs, STs, V-Stroms and BMWs, far superior bikes in a technical sense.
H-D uses Japanese carbs, forks, speedo, tach, starter. The V-rod is a Porsche collaboration. H-D will always have a niche but it will be mostly among those who appreciate visual and status aspects of owning the H-D. Although, status is in the eye of the beholder. H-Ds are rather archaic machines from an engineering/performance viewpoint. You’re starting to see alot of guys weaning off themselve off of H-Ds and getting into the real riding experience of handling, performance and sophistication. In fact, some of the riders I talk to who currently ride FJRs, STs,, V-Stroms, and BMW had an H-D.
US guys , even never been to US I can see noticing the commnets that there are a lot of sentiments re Harley Davidsons bikes. HD is over 100 yrs of existence as well, If Harley is facing a temporary situation, I know for sure that this will change because HD is traditional, otherwise it had ended its existence. Their engineers are well paid to face new survival/competition situation.
TO OWN A HARLEY MAKES A DIFFERENCE, YOU RE RESPECTED WHEREVER YOU GO.
Japanese bikes are very good too, but HARLEYS ARE HARLEYS. There’s no doubt abt it.
Ride Safely,
Rgds/Decio/Brazil
I have owned Hondas, Yamahas, and presently and proudly now own a Harley. Never have had a problem with it, sure they are more expensive, but they maintain their value. Also how many 1970 through 1980 model Jap bikes do you see on the road? I have listened so many times to people put down on Harleys, and guess what, in a few years you see them riding Harleys.
Mike, I actually see more old Japanese bikes then I do H-Ds. Why do you H-D guys still use the old WWII term for the Japanese? Because you’re stuck back in that old way which H-D represents. It’s not necessarily better -single pin crank, single cam (on most), push rod, air-cooled. Most everyone here agrees H-D is a beautiful looking machine and will be around for a long time. We are speculating why the HOG isn’t so fat anymore and everyone but you has given a compelling reason. There’s always a few low and slow guys that will enjoy the H-D but it simply cannot compete w/ any modern motorcycle.
Take a look at those HOG groups… one step away from the nursing home. Unfortunately for Harley, for anyone under 40, buying a Harley is like buying a Buick. Gonna be tough for them to live down that image of 150 old guys roaring past on their Harleys. The V-ROD is definately cool, but so are lots of ather bikes. Too bad it has the Harley name on it! it might sell better to the younger crowd.
Harleys are over priced and often pricey to maintain. The metric bikes are far superior to the Harleys. My Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe comes with a bumper to bumper 5 year warranty. Why doesn’t the Harley?
I agree with most of the comments about the Harleys. Attended a Harley rally this past weekend. Mostly old grey bearded men, and some grey beared women, attending. Once they fade away, Harley will also. Harley was once owned by AMF bowling balls corp. Maybe the best thing for them is to have Yamaha and Hondsa buy them out. HOGs are becoming known as “Harleys for Old Gen-Xers”. Bury the Harley when you bury the Gen-Xer. Harley is not a status symbol, it is an embarrassment to the American engineering know how. The metrics run circles around the Harley for performance, engineering and reliability.
The best motorcycle ever made is a BMW.
Though BMW cannot be compared to Harley as far as refinement it can be matched w/ Japanese bikes, especially the Suzuki V-Strom. In this case the playing field is pretty much leveled technology-wise and BMW owners could very well be accused of the Harley-like smugness. The V-Strom DL1000 is half the price of the BMW but the BMW is not twice the bike. In the adventure/touring/sport BMW is losing ground to the V-Strom. While in Alaska we rented some motorcycles mostly Harleys, Buell Ulysses, BMW 650 and a few other thumpers. I asked the guy which was the most trouble-free bike in his stable. Without hesitation he said the V-Strom 650, 16K miles with nothing but chain and oil.
Harley’s are a status symbol, nothing more – nothing less. At 1 time, I was interested in purchasing an 883 Sportster as a starter bike. H-D sent me literature about the 883 and said the base MSRP was $5995, imagine my surprise when the local dealer wanted $9000 for the same bike and wouldn’t budge off of it. It was take it or leave it. So I left it. Since then, I’ve bought 2 metric bikes and I’m glad I did. H-D has lost me forever…
Harley Davidson vs Metric etc. This old argument will be there for years. Harley Davidson have a following even over here in the good ol UK. Even though perhaps a slight reduction of late thanks to the EPA, but nonetheless they have a following. It IS a great USA acheivement, a success story so please enjoy it. Who cares whether there are metric cruisers, which tend to be more reliable, cheaper etc. There are those who ride Harleys and those who don’t. I ride a H/D Softail and Custom bikes. So whatever you ride enjoy it and just repect your fellow man for his decision to ride something other than a USA built bike, even if it is a piece of Jap Crap, Like a Yamhahaha, a Hondull, a Crapasaki, or a Pukesuki, it really doesn’t matter, does it?
Nigel-WELL SAID!
Nigel,
Good God ..are you for real?! This isn’t 1967 any more…. “Jap Crap”??!!
If you had 2 brain cells to rub together, you’d be dangerous!!
When are you guys gonna get it? H-D is still operating in 1938, and if they don’t smarten up they’re going to go the same way as Indian, Brough, and the rest of the American “success stories”
And Mike…I see you put together a sentence with 2 words in it…both single syllable however.
Nigel….I thought HOGs were the only dinosaurs still around…I was wrong – you qualify too.
“Jap Crap”?? You really are an idiot!
Wake up…if H-D doesn’t move into the 20th century (let’s not worry about the 21st just yet) they will most assuredly follow the other American success stories (Indian, Brough) down the tubes.
You make noise about “respect the other man’s decision”, then in the next breath come up with a 40 yr old crack like “Jap Crap”!
And Mike….I see you managed to put a 2 word sentence together – even if they were both single syllable words.
Pete, what’s hilarious is H-Ds so-called “evolution” engine aka “polished turd”. I just sold an FZ1 that had lots of Harley “kills”. Nothing makes ‘em madder than smokin’ ‘em off the line or in the twisties. The smart ones look straight ahead and act like they don’t see you. Why? Cause they got nothing but chromed iron and the illusion of speed and power. What’s more pathetic is their illusion of image as is so obvious. I saw it with a relative who rode a ninja but got hooked into a 7 year payment for an H-D $18K for nothing but image. Of course, now, his $h*t don’t stink.
Let us be really, really honest. The Harley is an image and macho status more than anything else. It is marketing at it’s finest. If it were not so why are there hundreds of guys walking around with Harley clothes and bandanas long after their bikes are up on blocks for the winter. It is the symbolism, not the ride. It is so obvious as I’ve ridden all the leading bikes that the power, technology and prices are so much superior. HDs should cost no more than any 15-1600cc metric bike, and the customer will have to accept the lower quality for his or her vanity
Nigel, I know you dont watch TV. Because that is JAP Crap. My guess your monitor is JAP Crap also. You did remove your shocks from your HD correct that also is JAP crap. No music for you either my guess your stereo system is JAP crap also. WOW you must have a very boring life if you dont use any JAP crap today.
How many of the writers have checked out the new specs on the HD,s? See any inprovements? The local dealer has a 1972 AMF Glide in the display. When it is setting by a 2008 Ultra the inprovements are easily seen. I’ll take the new HD’s and the MSRP between the 1972 and the 2008 has increased how many %?
Three points to consider:
1. China and the rest of the internatioal market will continue to grow.
2. At some point, the kids on crotch rockets will grow up and seek the all american cruisers.
3. If H/D does not improve things in the service departments, sales wil continue to fall. See how you’re treated when bringing in your ten year old bike for dealer service and see if you would be inclined to buy your next new bike from an H/D showroom.
HD STOCK WILL NEVER SEE $77 AGAIN.FLORIDA DEALERS ARE ALREADY IN A RECESSION. ROGERS ARK DEALER MUST HAVE NEARLY A HUNDRED 07′S STILL ON THE FLOOR. THE US HAS NEVER HAD A RECESSION WHEN WE WERE 11 TRILLION IN DEBT.THE MBA’S AT HD ARE PROBABLY ALREADY SCATTERING LIKE RATS.DEALERS ARE LOADED WITH DEBT IN A DISCOUNT MARKET. THINGS LOOK PRETTY BLEAK TO ME.
i would have to believe that in a few short yrs the huge baby boomers retireing are going to fullfill a liftime dream of owning that Harley they only could dream about,because they were to busy raisin a family and having a carrerr now that is done .Time to ride to live live to ride.
Harley Davidson sells “image.” Yes their bikes have gotten better but it’s that Harley “image” that has allowed them to get a significant premium for their bkes.
The past few years have been very good to Harley. Why? Mainly because of cheap and available money coupled with an older group who have always secretly romanced the 1950’s rebel spirit. So, those Gen X’ers and baby boomers bought a ton of Harleys. Now, however, I think we are going to see a number of trends that are really going to hurt Harley.
Probably the biggest immediate problem for Harley as well as everyone selling luxury goods is that cheap and easy money has dried up. Secondly, there seems to be a ton of low mileage used Harleys on the market. I suspect that many older “rebels” have tried it and are now moving on. All those used bikes will certainly impact resale and new bike sales. But I think the main problem for Harley is exactly the image that has created their recent success. Not eveyone wants to look and act like a 70 year old version of Marlon Brando, especially the younger riders. I see the Harley fan base as slowly fading away. Lastly and another seldom discussed fact is that many older riders, including some died in the wool Harley owners who ride for the enjoyment of riding, are beginning to realize that some bikes are just much more enjoyable. Consider the increase in sports touring bikes and maxi scooters. I think Maxi scooters and other bikes with automatic transmissions will be the next big deal.
Bottom line, I forecast kind of a slow downward spiral for Harley. I see their fan base disappearing and I can’t see Harly coming up with something that will justify their price difference in the future. Without the price difference, they cannot survive.
Today 1-25-2008 I watched as Harleys sales dropped approx 26% and stock will follow. I have always noticed how Harley advertises with machismo and coolness being the main message. The whole Harley marketing machine was geared to this and can only go so far with 60-70 yr olds and never did go over with the younger generation and people who wanted a really quality machine and loved to ride and travel. I sold my Harley after a year as I always prefered riding my Kawasaki or my Suzuki, they are just better riding and smoother bikes. Harley has been riding a fashion and a fad image they created for a while but now I’m afraid they are going to fall long and hard.
I recently rode( back to back) a Fat Boy and a Kawasaki 1500 Classic fi. The Harley, in addition to being exactly twice as much, was sluggish, noisy and vibrated so hard it rattled the mirrors! Plus the ride on the Kawasaki was smooth as silk and very enjoyable. I purchased the Kawasaki with removable windshield back rst and saddle bags for $9500 out the door. The Hog would of sent me back 24 k. What a JOKE!! Keep your style. Besides, I’ll follow my own rode.
Harley is number one in heavyweight sales year after year,about 105 years case closed.
Simple – They cost too much, they have too many mechanical problems, (especially the TC 96)plus the dealers act like customers are doing them a favor by coming into the showroom.
I own a 2005 HD, and NOW maybe I can afford to buy another one, which I vowed I would never do again, until HD starting acting like it really wanted my business.
Better lower prices, HD, and improve product quality (like going back to forged cranks instead of cast, and solving the cam chain tensioner problem, and the overheating problem)or be prepared to cut production and lay off workers until you are tiny, and then go belly up, or maybe be bought by some company like AMF again.
Stubborn ***holes
I’m 59 and have a 2002 FatBoy..all black and chrome with a few goodies. When I roll that beast out of the garage at 6AM..fire it up and rattle the neighbors windows…then make the silverware dance on their tables when I go down the street…I smile and think…”life is sooo sweet!” I get comments on the bike wherever I go. I sit in coffee shops and watch people stop and look at my bike time and time again. A two hour ride on that scooter does more for my mental well being than a year’s worth of visits to a shrink. I’ve ridden all types of other bikes over the past 30 years, and not one exudes that “feeling” when you lower your butt down onto the seat of a Harley and strap that bad boy on. So, ride your crotch-rockets and your rice burners and your BMW’s (no one will notice you) and let me ride through life knowing I share a mystique like none other. I will be smiling….and so will God.
Harley’s trouble will keep getting deeper unless they start facing up to fixing the problems with their bikes and what the riders want! This next generation of riders are not near as loyal as mine is,buy American,they want a company that stands behind what they build.
I have predicted this for a long time. I believe it’s a combination of several things: A new generation with different values, and with an expectation of technological advancements, price differential to metric bikes, and a glut of Harleys now on the market.
Harley has met the end of its run. 6 years ago, I was a returning rider. I rode when I was in my 20’s but then opted for marriage, a mortgage, and children. In my 40’s I wanted to start riding again so I went to one of the big international motorcycle shows to check out the new Harley Davidson’s as I could never afford one when I was young… what changed? nothing! Exact same bikes as 20 years earlier… Harley doesn’t sell motorcycles, they sell an image; and at twice the price for half the technology. I now own 2 bikes. A Japanese sport bike, and a BMW touring bike. Harley’s are on their way out. The next generation of returning riders that can afford to buy Harley’s are gonna buy Italian, German, and Japanese machines. Because they know what kind of performance that they got from those brands before. Harley has milked the market for decades and done nothing to improve its products. Now it’s gonna pay for that mistake. I never understood why Harley never invested in many of the weight lightening materials that have been employed by other manufacturers. It would have been nice to lighten their machines and shorten their stopping distance, and maybe give their customer a fighting chance when some idiot with a cell phone stuck to their head pulls a left turn in front ‘em. But the boys in chaps and puddin’ bowls never demanded any improvements. Harley Davidson can’t compete with the other makers who are decades ahead in innovations and technology. Their done.
Well Hubby & I for one are still helping Harley Out!! Hubby Bought a 07′Road King & I bought a 08′ Dyna Super Glide custom. My Sportster was only 3 yrs old, we traded it in for my new one
Willie G. ain’t immune to ‘market correction’ mechanisms. But, I think this one will be more protracted and painful for Mr.MiddleClass America.
I’ve got two bikes in my garage, neither of them are HD. Why? The bikes are over-rated and under-performing.
HD isn’t selling motorcycles, they’re selling an image, and all the baaad boy wannabe’s (some of ‘em my friends) are fodder for the HD marketing machine.
I own and ride an 07 Ultra Classic. I like the bike a lot but when you consider how much I paid for it and it’s value against Gold Wings and the big Beemers, HD comes up short. Even with the 96 inch 07 engine I still get smoked by about everything. Also, I suspect that future touring bikes are going to be more along the lines of Yamaha’s FJR 1300. Put cruise control on something like that and I’d be a convert.
I have owned four bikes, the last two have been Harleys. Every Harley owner I have ever met, has owned another brand of MC at some point.
Point is, we all want a Harley eventually.
But until we get one, we bash them one way or another.
Well said, Pete. I’m old enough to be financially able to buy a Harley – so, I am. We don’t care about speed. Speed kills. Some of buy American because we ARE Americans.
YOu get a few good points from these forums, then it devolves into name-calling. What ever happened to respecting your neighbor? Whatever you ride – Enjoy your ride.
I”M SIXTY YEARS OLD HAVE BEEN RIDING HARLEY SINCE THE EARLY SIXTY.I HAVE SEEN HARLEY GO FROM ONE OF THE MOST UNREALIABLE BIKES,TO ONE THAT YOU LEAVE TOWN AND GET BACK WITHOUT BREAKING DOWN.I KNOW SOME DON’T LIKE TO HEAR THE TRUTH,BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH.HARLEY WAS ONLY GAME IN TOWNE,TIMES HAVE CHANGED,HONDA,KAWS,BMW.SUZY.ARE HERE TO STAY.I STAYED WITH HARLEY BECAUSE IT WAS “AMERICAN MADE”,AND I STILL LOV”EM.I THINK THEY WILL BE AROUND,BUT YOU BETTER GET WITH THE TIMES.GET OFF OF YOUR HIGH HORSE,AND START TO PRODUCE A MACHINE THAT WILL RIVAILE “THE OTHER BIKES” OF THE WORLD
I don’t know why you Harley bashers are so prejudiced against Harley. We all buy what we are comfortable with, we all have choices. I have found that most that buy Jap bikes do so because they like riding, and can’t afford a Harley. When you ride or buy a Harley your part of a lifestyle, its a brotherhood your part of. Most of your events rides are all Harley. I think maybe you resent the fact Harley riders are loyal to Harley, the great all American Institution, been around since the turn of the century and will be around in the next century. Harley are basic, iron in your face motorcycles. You either like them or you don’t. My advice is enjoy what you can afford and quit the bashing, kinda like saying grow up.
HD builds junk compared to the Honda bikes. The goldwing runs circles around any of the HD and typically can get 200k-300k miles without any engine trouble. 1832, flat 6 cylinder is the best ride around!!!!!!
People have been waiting for new technology FAR TOO LONG! Victory has brought this to light along with some off shore productions! i think the modern sleek,affordable (best bang for your buck) are the bikes that will survive and grow in the future. CHANGES for H-D need improving the entire product line and may take longer then i have time for! It is of my opion, ” I want new innovative design with modern or even furturistic syling, power and efficiency supporting those that provide it”.
unfortunately its meet the new boss,same as the old boss. ive read so much about how harley has spent money on suspension floors and computer this and that , how the quality is there. is see the suposed technology in the price,i do not see it in the quality.at hd prices the bike should be the best in the industry,its not. people are buying memories, nothing wrong with that, but what they are getting is new bikes that have to be reconfigured at customer exspense. whats obvious at the dealer is we want your money,whats also obvious is thats all harley is interested in.harelys idea of customer service is soaking them ,and if they could actually service or fix something thats just a plus. example- cam shoes cam shoes cam shoes.im hoping to go to gear cams, the aftermarket will get it.i do as much maintenance as i can. stage on-vance and hines got that.what harley puts on their acessories i dont call chrome , i call it lamenate.already one harley has closed its doors in my naiborhood.i like the look, i like the ride, but the mechanics are horrible overpriced mechanations that should have never been considered a durable good.harley does not fix a design flaw they alter it and call it a total redesign. i can credit harley for teaching me more about mechanics than i ever knew or wanted to know.harley has the biggest r&d program of all motorcycle companies and the company calls it the buying public.their only customer interest is are you ready to spend more. and by their attitude dealers and company, they will enjoy a hearty laugh when they read this. will harley survive, perhaps there are plenty of el toro lawn mowers to sell. and they work.
I just bought a 2008 Road King after not riding for about 10 years. I had a Sportster in the mid 90’s. I like the bike a lot, but I’m not a Harley only person. I’ve put 1700 miles on it, 1350 of which was during road trip into northern Minnesota and Wisconsin. I live near Milwaukee. I like the ride and handling, but when the outside temperature got above 80, it was overheating at redlights (redlight)and the exhaust was very hot and was really bothering my wife. I’ve looked at some fixes, but I’m afraid they may void the warranty. I’m taking it for the 1000 mile service next week and hoping they can fix the problem. If not, I’ll make a decision whether to sell and get another brand or whether to try the fixes regardless of the warranty issue. Other than the overheating, I like the bike, but I consider it unacceptable to not be able to ride in hot weather and go thru stoplights and city traffic. I’m hoping it can be taken care of.
I like the comment of jack johnson (56) Like him I have been riding since my teens. Here in the UK HARLEYS are more popular than ever.
Iv’e done the stage 1 thing with my dyna super glide custom and it runs real fine, no over heating. I still run my Velocette Venom and have enjoyed every minute on that machine. But that Harley looks real great, didn’t think I would find one I would like, but that 07 model sure is a looker, even the wife enjoys riding shot gun, and as Jack says, nothing better to roost the neighbours with at six in the morning.
H-D isn’t going through anything that all the other manufacturers are not. Let’s face it, motorcycles are recreational vehicles and in this economic downturn people will be slow to purchase any kind of motorcycle. I ride a 2005 ultra-classic and love every minute of it. Some of you are missing the point, most people purchase harleys because it is an American company. Sure there are some import parts installed but they are all assembled by red blooded American union workers. American workers demand more money than forein workers. But it also about the people who ride Harleys too. H-D totally supports HOG chapters which is over one million members. Hog chapters promote safe riding practices. There are H-D sponsored events almost every weekend. If you have problems with your dealer, try another one. There are good and bad of everything. You shouldn’t base your opinion on one person, is that the way you buy cars? I know a lot of people who ride yamahas and suzukis. They always want to come out and ride with us because they don’t have any kind of organized rides to go on. They have to ride by theirselves. When we let them ride with us then they start whining and complaining about our bikes.
Give me a break! Yes, the economy has taken a big hit and yes harley have some parts that werent made in the U.S. I am 27years old and proud to have bought an American made motorcycle. Harley has really keep their bikes as traditional as possible. The past few years they have created a few new bikes. They have also added fly by wire throttle, efi, and the new wider tires. I see Harley-Davidson moving in a positive direction. With the increase in gas prices more people should get out and ride. Ride free and ride American. Be safe…..
I have read a lot of these comments on HD. As a PHD service tech sense 1974 very little of your new HD is made in the USA any longer. Yes is assembled here but its a world market and most of the components are from China ,Taiwan, Mexico, Australia, Canada, Japan. HD outsources almost everything. Who ever has the best price gets the job.
Now the engines of today are much better the the ones from the 1970tys but not much, Push rod engines will never make power. Vrods? Pfft. In 99 the rep came to where I work and asked me to ride a vrod. I did and he asked me upon my return what I thought. I said ” it rides like a buckboard and had no power” He said that I needed to get it up in RPM. I had it on the rev limiter. Of coarse at that time the dealership I worked for also was a Suzuki Dealer and I test road Hyibusa’s. (they make big Power!)
I own a 103, 135 HP dresser. Its the fastest in my area but its still a slug! I hate to see it -as I use to say I have mag wheels and belt drives- but now realize how much better it is, but Harley better get with the changing market.
P— and moan all you want but this is my opinion and I live it.
In response to Neil, Unfortunately it cant be stopped. The dealership will give you a free download for parade mode. It make the bike run on 1 cylinder at idle. (its bad) but it will still be hot.
Hairy I knew you were a mechanic before I read it. I work on 40% flat rate. What gripes me the most is the know nothing and do nothings get all the credit for my hard work and make 60%. Prime example is at the factory they said the want us as a team. Meaning sales and service. Yet if you have been to Milwaukee you know the sales people ( who know nothing and do nothing ) ( as HD sells its self ) ride in Limos and stay across the street at the Hyatt eat lunch catered to them while we stay at the Holiday Inn and ride the bus to class and eat in the cafeteria. Whats wrong with this picture? Team? treated alike? I think not! Harley will sell you crap and smile in your face.
I do a lot of performance work and a customer came back and showed me a set of pipes he bought. I said they were junk and he needed to get his money back. He ended up buying a set that cost more and would really work but I almost lost my job.
Stop debating and take a long look up and down the freeway. How many Gen-X types do you see riding HD? Not many. Harley has arrogantly ignored the attitudes and desires of their next customer base and locked on to the older, “biker” crowd. Isn’t that the same crowd that’s turning grey, having heart attacks and inviting the grand kids over on the weekend? If you’re an investor, and I am, that should tell you everything you need to know.
I own a 1974 Harley Davidson FL, I purchased it new in 1975, still have it, still ride it. I have just purchased another bike, this time a Kawasaki, half the price, built as good,if not better than a Harley. I am 56 years old, retired, have been riding for 40 years. At this point in my life I believe I am quite knowledgeable of what I want in a motorcycle. Surely at my age I have no need to impress anyone which led me away from Harley. Bottom line, my new Kawasaki will do anything better, cheaper, faster, for about half the price!
hey all you harley bashers,maybe you need to man up and learn what riding is all about,its not for candy asses. by the way if you would get a real mans job, maybe you could afford a real mans bike, maybe you should get a big suzuki,yamaha or honda patch and sew it on your jacket so the world knows how proud you are of what your riding.[you probably know how to sew]
What stock isnt in the toilet right now? What impresses me most about HD is their style and they market it real well. Look at all the metric cruisers that have copied the look of the 60s Fl. If the folks at HD are smart and I think they are they will continue to upgrade the tech end of it, and a lot of the recent upgrades ie bigger motors six speed trannys fat tire options can probably be a result of the Victory lines increasing popularity, and HD has recognized this and are not just sitting on the sidelines watching their market share shrink. Next thing is a better engine design, pushrod motors and 2 valve heads are rear dinosaurs. I do find it amusing that some folks want to compare a HD cruiser to a SUZ, YAM, KAW, or Honda sport bike, they are not after the same buyer, but it is true that those manufacturers are after HD’s customers with their cruisers, and IMHO, the only thing they can offer is a lower price. Everyone I know with a metric cruiser would have bought a HD if the price was the same, probably have to include myself and I love my VIC Kingpin. The cruiser market which is HD’s domain definetly is shrinking younger riders are more inclined to sport bikes, plus there is a big increase in the popularity of adventure riding something that a HD is ill suited for.
HD has probably reached its zenith, I hope that is not true for the American economy, but it will still be the driving force in the big inch cruiser market, which may have also reached its pinnacle. I just hope that the newcomers to the segment stick around to keep inovating and pushing HD and themselves to create newer and better products for us the enthuisist to enjoy.
I’m on my 3rd Harley 42Servi-Car, 95 883 Sportster, 03 1200 Sportster,have Also had Honda CB 350/4, Kawasaki 900 Z1B, Triumph 750 Trident, and may be selling my BMW R12C today. They all have problems except the HD 883 so quit bragging and whining as the case may be. HD has had it rough before and got their act together. Hormonal kids want to race, But tickets and girls, kids, aching backs and carpal tunnel will slow them down. Then they will appreciate the bigger bikes with the torque and better gas mileage. by the way BMW 41mpg 1170 cc HD 45mpg 1203 cc my friends vulcan classic <39mpg more miles,less money= more fun.
I think if Harley will consider lowering their cruisers,and sporters to fit women then their
will be a large request. women love HDs as much
as men, but this generation of women have the need
to have their own bike.
Wildbill
Anacoco
Louisiana