FDNY Says "No Thanks" to Eight Free Harleys for EMS Use
After spending 6 months to study the ramifications of putting emergency medical services personnel on two wheels, the New York City Fire Department has turned down eight free Harley-Davidson motorcycles.
One source in a New York Post story cites a safety concern with cycles, but for Kent Aarosen, who proposed the idea, the benefits are clear: "What we have in this program is reduced response times, increased patient survivability and increased access to early defibrillation [during heart attacks]."
The Post story credits motorcycles with a 60% improvement in the response time of Miami-Dade Fire Rescue services, and doesn't come to any definitive conclusions as to why the FDNY is reluctant to accept the gifts. And while the door doesn't seem entirely shut on the case, it does mention that the NYPD is about to plunk down $1 million on a fleet of Hogs.
Do you think the FDNY is staying away from bikes for safety reasons, or are there other forces at play? Comment with your thoughts.
Photo © Cate Gillon / Getty Images
Comments
The main issues are safety, staffing, and effectiveness.
The fact is these bikes can not safely make their way through dense downtown or midtown traffic any better than an SUV. Comparing NYC traffic to Florida is not an argument. They wouldn’t be allowed on sidewalks, pedestrians are always a problem, it just isn’t safe for those operating the bikes.
Staffing, where are these medics and EMTs going to come from. They would be pulled off of existing ambulances thus reducing the amouint of ambulances available to actually transport the patient to the hospital. There is a nationwide shortage of EMS workers, NYC is no different. And there is a hiring freeze because of fiscal concerns, so hiring new people is not an option.
Effectiveness, OK so the medics get there, they will have limited equipment available, no way to provide for shelter or privacy of the patient, and still have to wait for an ambulance to arrive.
Bikes for NYC is not the way to go, I avoid riding my Harley in NYC and choose to stay in the burbs or in the “country” just outside of the City.
NYC has a good EMS System with reasonable response times, there is room for improvement but motorcycles are not the answer.
I have seen pizza delivery guys in Monterrey Mexico get around on bikes and they are there in minutes. And you think New York has a traffic problem, besides didnt the governor give everyone there a drivers license.
I work at 42nd street and Lexington, right across from Grand Central. If I have a medical emergency I may as well count myself as dead. This place is gridlock fourteen hours a day. When the steam pipe exploded here in July it took fifteen minutes for first responders to get here.
Less than two weeks ago at the US Olympic marathon trials Ryan Shay went down at 5.5 miles and it took the EMT more than 20 minutes to get to him. They were first blocked by the crowd, then heckled for taking so long.
I don’t think a Road King is the answer, but i think something more nimble would make sense.
I believe the weather would make motorcycles a saftey concern for the EMT’s.
A small dual sport would be a better choice. These are used successfully by a number of police departments and are tall, nimble, narrow, light, and can go through parks, sidewalks, construction sites, and split lanes when practical. You may still have to wait for an ambulance, but at least the first-responder can get there quicker.
Totally agree with Jim…
Harley’s are NOT the best choise for this type of operation…
Put them on Trikes, still small enough to get thru the gridlock of NY and safe enough to keep one from going down, plus the added benefit of being able to carry more med equipment
1- the proof is in the numbers per the article. Getting a qualified person to the site makes a difference and motorcycles can get their easier (i.e. Dade County numbers)
2- Having seen the NY motor cops in action (911 ride- escorted thru 4 states) these are hands down some of the best riders I have ever had the pleasure to watch (in awe)and certainly far above any of the other escort teams. They new the area and new how to navigate/ control it.
I find it hard to belive an EMT with that skill couldnt add value as a first respopnder to save lives.
I’m betting its political.
I think it is the fact that Harley Davidson is not as reliable as a trusting motorcycle as are Honda or other Japanese bikes.
At the risk of being flamed, I’m going to just lay it on the line. Let’s face it, Harley’s are beautiful machines and a blast to ride (I’ve owned 4 cycles in my life), but the fact remains that Harleys, even well maintained, will spend more time in the shop than on the road. Who wants to take the chance that their vehicle will vibrate itself to pieces on the way to an emergency, or simply fail to start? I’m sure this must have factored into NYFD’s decision. Motorcycles do make sense for first responders in dense urban areas, but I’d pay for the reliability of a Honda or Suzuki over the image of a Harley (even a free one) anytime.
You trash talkin’ anti HD-folks need to get a clue. READ THE ARTICLE — they are about to plunk down $1 Mil for a fleet of HD’s. The Moto cops ride HD’s. IF they were so unreliable (which is BS these days) they wouldnt be buying more for the cops.
I’d have to totally support everything that Hamburger posted previously. I am also a rider myself and IMHO there are better choices of bikes for reliability & dependability. I do hope that NYFD looks into further options without completely black-flagging the motorcycle response.
Harleys are just as reliable or more so than a Jap bike, I wouldn’t own one if they weren’t. I wouldn’t ride thru NY city if you payed me a million dollars for one time. They need to use a mini Cooper or something like that, you don’t want to be outside in that jungle, they need protection in that city.
by the way—-Miami-Dade EMT’s use…….HARLEY’S!!!
You can muester up a thousand excuses, but the fsact remains, motorcycles will get there faster and breeze through traffic. It’ the most nimble machine out there. I drive in the city and grented, you better be focused, but other than that, I get anywhere faster, especially through traffic. I think the correct response is
P O L I T I C S. You want to care for patients, then get the Harleys out there. Hell, city cops do it and if properly fitted, you an fit a lot oo fgear on a bike. Unreliable ? Ha. maybe 15-20 years ago.
Politics
I think bikes are wrong for all the valid negatives mentioned. I believe that EMS should be spread out uniformly throughout a city, with vehicles at the ready at much more locations. This especially in a concrete jungle like NY.
Hell, I’ll take a bike
Bikes are certainly help, especially if the rest of the US would wake up and join the rest of the world and CA in allowing lane splitting. Often a few extra minutes in the presence of a trained paramedic makes all the difference and the only way he can get to the scene quicker is by bike.
Even if the NYFD did accept and use MC’s for EMS calls, what happens in the winter months? Are they/do they use Snowmobiles to get on-scene quicker? Aren’t some of the NYPD EMT-certified? Are they able to be first-responders on their rides? Or is the staffing an issue? A first responder *usually* only carries a basic jump bag. I know my EMT Jump Bag isn’t equipped with IV’s, Oxygen or a Defib. If the patient is that critical, that person on the bike isn’t going to do much for that patient by getting there 5 minutes quicker. And if the patient isn’t that critical, that extra 10 minutes for the ambulance to arrive with the needed equipment isn’t going to result in a life or death situation. It sounds like NY has a need for more EMS personnel to reduce response times…before they worry about putting their crew on bikes.
Why doesn’t Harly Davidson donate bikes to cities and towns that are smaller?
I love cruisers, but I have to agree with Jim – dual sports would be a great choice since we do get snow from time to time.
Trust me, I’m looking down at Lexington Ave. and a trike would not get through.
BTW, NYC politicians tell us they have always been honest and above board.
Just as well, last thing we need is a bunch of overweight alcoholics racing around the city on motorbikes…
i think its a good idea but who ever turned it down did so because they didn’t think of it frist??hey why save lives this is just to simple..i worked as an ems provider getting to the person who needs the help sometimes seconds mean life or death..i hope the a– hole that turned this down sleaps good at night noing someone died because you missed getting there in time.i feel this should go in the press or better yet vote him out…
Wow, this is an excellent idea, and I can’t believe people on this board are looking at it as a chance to insult HD riders or a “jap bike vs American bike” thing. And 5 minute won’t make a diffrence? Your lying thru your teeth if your claiming to be an EMT. Granted a smaller nimble bike might be better, but I believe this is political from someone with a bad image of bile, andf I’ll bet from people who’ve never been on one or dealt with them.
What would expect from the largest city in the state that proposed drivers lic for illegal aliens.
Why those FDNY say no thank to free fire harley?? If they dont want. Then U can give me a free harley. I lost my job. my part time is stick not enough money. i am poor right now… reason why..
hummm..My name is Michelle , 43 years old from NJ. And I am deaf since born. I am interesting in the motorcycle all about designer biker. I saw varies motorcycle magazine very interesting. I really like kind of old school or bobber biker. But I am only 5′1′ tall woman. Just search for fit the biker. Because I lost my job.. I am surprised and heard all about the women can build and mechanic those few bikers? Very interesting. Frankly, I really am interesting in that. Yea… I want being motorcycle mechanic like them.
I love the artist style biker very much. I love artist. I always want to learn being motorcycle mechanic repair very motive for long time. Of course I am very inept about mechanic, but i learn little about engine not all. ONE THING…. I really need learning the tools, biuld, and engine badly. My generation family in the past, my grandfather was working a body car and mechanic auto for 40 years, my uncle is retired auto mechanic and car dealer, my two cousins still work auto mechanic, and my ex-brother-in law is specific mechanic for funny car and nascar. I don’t… I work Human Service Technician as Nurse Aides at psycho hospital for 10 years. I recently lost my job very unhappy with my boss RA Nurse. I should go back school for become motorcycle mechanic long time ago. For nothing… I have been wonder there motorcycle mechanic school have any provide for the interpreters for the deaf. I knew I cannot afford going the school in FLA too for me in native NJ. That is why. Frankly, My favorite is artist history in the museum. I attend to the art museum in NYC many times.
I always want old-school biker like Indian Larry’s. I am huge fans of Indian Larry, Even I never meet him before! Because I have been watching TV show of Bikers Build-off. I wish I should have that. But I don’t have any motorcycle….. Oh well. I know I cannot afford this Old-school biker :::sigh:::
I want to tell you something. I am happy now. Reason I am deaf since birth. Myself fluent America Sign Language, and I can talk but my speech is not great. Not perfect. Don’t worry about my speech. Humm I always want be Deaf Woman Biker and my dream come true about riding to Sturgis badly. I have been search for the motorcycle rider course in the class WITHIN the interpreters. I never give up… in 5th times the knowledge test failed until finally passed the knowledge test very relieved. Before, I went to Motorcycle Safety Foundation in the class have provide the interpreters for the deaf for me there. Since I am glad I passed the road test in my motorcycle safety foundation class with two interpreters in Sept 9 + 10th 2006 because I am deaf.
In whole two days in motorcycle class on the weekend. hummm I have lot of FUN all day, and two excellent ridercoachs taught me learning a lot me and other deaf guy within two interpreters for us. I ride motorcycle around a practice, practice and practice, I learn very quickly too easy. I feel sooo sweat make too nervous in first day a kind of awkward about riding a biker… Next day, very smooth as no problem. two ridercoach give me the road test veery very worried since I pray in my high power say, “GIVE ME PASS NOW!” I think funny. Then… In my best moment I look at my Goth ridercoach slowly toward walking to me scare to death, Like her face frown But she is real Goth no joke that my ridercoach … anyway. Until Her smile, “You pass it.” I look up at god quietly say, “…..thank you……” I can go home a rest. I feel soo good I pass it!
Now I have new motorcycle license, I passed the road test. But I don’t have any motorcycle. I really need more practice riding around. I love old-school biker. I know I cannot afford an expansive kind of motorcycle and rent the storage,too. Also my house’s the garage have no room for it. ::::sigh::: Why I love a motorcycle? When I was around 8 years old. My father bought very first brand new motorcycle. Not America biker. It bring into America from Italy biker. The factory company for building the motorcycles called ‘Benilli”. Of course RARE Benilli is very knowledge. That vintage motorcycle was very very rare. Because hard to find that biker in anywhere in US! So I have old picture with me but I cannot remember where I put somewhere in the house. my first time I sat back seat on his Benilli biker with him in 1973. He rode it with me feel good. I loved feeling breeze wind on his biker. The best moment…. I fell in love with his benilli forever. Very sad… 30 years ago, my dad did sold someone his biker, he need money. My mind still think of my benilli. Until today.. My father got spinal cancer in last September 2006 by his doctor tells him the news. He still was in the hospital for almost four month. I have no choice.. I have to force myself to drop my planning to buy the motorcycle in the future for my father’s sick come first. He got trouble with his problem breath within oxygen machine. Right away brought him back to the hospital and doctor check on him. The doctors apologized to announce us that my dad is dying on his bed in the Memorial Morristown Hospital in NJ ON Christmas Eve…. In my mind never have in my dream come true about riding to Sturgis for all Deaf Women Bikers. I don’t deserve it… well.. My father passed away in Dec. 28th, 2007. I helped my mother to pay the bills of funeral/hospital instead of my planning to buy a motorcycle. I have lot of frustration about difficult budget……
Every time, I attempt buying some tickets of the prizes about brand new motorcycle at any Biker show of the events. I always hope to win….. Never win. I never had win in my life for four years. Today… I lost my job recently. I hate being poor again. my bank is total broke. No choice. I have to hold my planning to buy a motorcycle in the future… I have to take all huge application form jobs in everyday. God I hate postponed my planning!! I wish I have motorcycle…… and being motorcycle mechanic. I don’t know what to do…..
Thank for sharing,
“Fingers”
Michelle DellaPelle
Basking Ridge, New Jersey
Hey, I commute everyday that I can on my Sportster in NYC! First, if you have never driven here keep your comments to yourself … it is a true test of skill. Second, there is so much traffic here … a bike is the best way to get there … I cannot believe they would turn down the idea! Third, WE ALL better start supporting AMERICA…buy HD’s! That is the problem with America. When will we start believing in this great country and ourselves? Forth, make lane splitting legal in NYS! Traffic for the most part is at a stand still. Why the hell should a biker sit there taking up space and burning gas like every other person who is afraid to own one? HD all the way!!!! It beats traffic hands down.
Well now — – Harley-Davidson has been around since when???? mmmm reliable you betcha !! EMS… you betcha again
I maintenance my bike as scheduled – it runs fine after 50k+ miles… imagine that.
NYPD …. go for it .. they will be an asset. Love to see you earn the stripes that motor officers have earned. I have seen them in action many times- they are the BEST riders ever.
I would want a HARLEY to my rescue !!!
I am a Fire Capt. and have been an EMT for the past 14 years. I know first hand that minutes do save lives. The faster you can get to a patient with a defib. the better his chances of survival. Not to mention the patients that are hemorging, or childbirth, or CVA.
Mike
Oh, by the way I ride a HD Firefighter Special Edition on my days off.
Those who can’t get through traffic on a bike better than a car really should learn how to ride. Thanks for keeping your hogs in the burbs as you obviousely don’t know how to ride in the 1st place. Bikes were made for traffic jamming. If you can’t there faster on a bike you don’t deserve to be there.
I think Fred nailed it in the first paragraph.
I think it’s an idea well worth trying. And by the way, what did that long drawn out whining session from Michelle have to do with EMT’s on bikes?
Any firemen from New York reading this? I would like to hear your opinion.
Mike
A more sutiable bike is the answer. Honda makes an ST 1300 Police edition motorcycle that is far better than HD for that type of work. Thats why Some police departments are making the switch. Such as Tyler TX, Houston TX and many others….
wow — there’s a lot to respond to…
My parents are from da Bronx & Brooklyn. I am from Miami (Farrr lower east-side!) I have family in Jersey and my uncle was a Gold Shield in NYC for almost 30 years.
I have over 15 years in the Fire Department down here in Florida.
We were up there in August. I spent 7 straight days on my goldwing in NYC. I know what some of the concerns are.
I am a motorcycle escort for 3 different companies. I compete at GWRRA’s International Top Gun Competition every year and am always in the top 3. I ride over 4,500 miles a month.
I feel I am qualified to make the following comments:
Driving a bike in NYC is like driving any other vehicle, to a point. If you drive like you are a tourist, the cabbies and everyone else will not respect you and they WILL cut you off. If you drive like you live there and cut the cabbies off, they will give you the room you need.
That being said, for me, the traffic is not the biggest issue in NYC. The ROADS themselves are. I lost count of how many times I had to take evasive action due to poor road conditions. (Several areas are missing chunks of road altogether. There’s one in Brooklyn that is 3′ by 4′ and 8 inches deep with nothing more than a manhole in the middle.)
As an EMT, I know every second counts. You would be AMAZED how much gear can be stowed on a bike! Bikes will generally provide a patient with a faster initial response time.
Honda vs Harley. There will always be a debate here. Facts are facts. Per mile driven, Honda is a less expensive machine to maintain. Harley models traditionally used for Police work are air-cooled machines, not water-cooled. They have a tendency to overheat, as do all air-cooled machines, in stop n go traffic. Since 1981, the Honda Goldwing has been 100% Made in the USA. The Goldwing is more American than Harley is right now.
Traffic, road conditions, nimbleness, physical size, and visibility are all factors that have to be weighed. I would look at something like the Honda ST1300 which is a sport touring bike that is already in use by many police and fire departments across the country.
Unless you compete at the top levels or are a motor officer, or have passed the motor officer course, you can not fathom just how difficult and demanding the job of just getting from point a to b can be! (No to mention high speed driving where cars like to pull out right in front of you and claim to never have seen your lights, nor hear your siren.)
The traditional Police Harley is not the best choice IMHO for NYC. I support their choice to stay away from them. (Manpower *could* be provided via volunteers, but I promise you there will be a HUGE list of EMTs who would rather ride the bike than drive the box. Ask any motor officer how long he or she was on a waiting list.)
If you do not have something positive to say, please refrain from saying anything at all.
If you do not have something to contribute to this discussion, please remain a bystander and do not get involved.
Here’s a thought… allow those EMT’s who have an adequate bike to perform their duties on their own bike as a test program. They can stay on salary and just participate in the program for over-time hours. Just a thought.
BTW – It’s FDNY not NYFD,
Doug,
I think I ran over that very manhole construction (either on Flatbush Ave or Adams St., I forget) when I was over in Brooklyn yesterday. I was glad I was in my F150
Yes the streets are rough here. I made the mistake of living on 1st Ave. once. It’s just a patchwork of repaired concrete that make every truck bounce and boom like thunder.
04 Roadglide owner. I use it for EMS response. With proper training, great asset to NYC.
Not that another opinion matters, but hell, why not? I ride both metric and American bikes. I currently own a Road King Classic. I do not believe there is a valid argument that a Harley RK would not be reliable, or could not be outfitted to be of limited assistance.
My concern is, that a RK is totally the wrong tool for the job. Europe and Asian countries use motorcycles for all applications – police, EMT, towing, parking enforcement – but they use the right tool for the job. Quite frankly, a BMW R1200 RT would be THE bike for the job. It is shorter, lighter, way nimbler in heavy traffic, can be easily outfitted with equipment, and offeres more weather protection than the RK.
Okay, so you don’t want a German bike… then go with a Honda ST1300. Quite frankly, I ride a Suzuki VStrom, and I cannot imagine any better bike for this sort of task than the 650 ABS version.
If you feel you HAVE to have an American bike, then the better US bike to go with would be a Buel Ulysses outfitted with hardbacks and trunk. Talk about jumping curves and riding through tight allyways – I’d say it would dust the Harley under those conditions.
FDNY / EMS don’t give 2 cent about there EMT.
We could use the bike in place like NYC Park and other specel events. Back in the 80’s we had mopels.
Thanks Harley Davidson
EMS workers are so fat, they would need a side car for their bellies.
After reading the concerns, piagio make a 500cc three wheel scooter that addresses most of the safety concernes, still nimble, still small enough to get between trafic,two front tires that prevent spills and the power to carry the gear that is needed. ny is no fl but I think idea is worth looking at.