Moto Poll: Should Harley-Davidson Receive a Government Bailout?

I was at the motorcycle show here in NY last weekend and I spent very little time at the H-D booth because they really don’t have anything innovative. I spent a lot of time at Victory and Star, and I’ll probably end up with a Stratoliner soon because of power, style, aluminum frame and value. If find myself willing to spend more I’ll go for a Vision.

H-D dealers were really arrogant over the last decade, practically charging admission to their showrooms. H-D didn’t reign them in and financed dealer markups and “investments” in chrome. They are going to pay dearly for that, as a taxpayer, I am not.

I say NO to a H.D. bail-out, I did not want a bail-out og the auto makers. Harley has a money grabbing union as the big auto makers. If you make junk that is all you have is junk, only high priced junk. The auto makers say they see the light, only more of the same. H.D. will never see the light as long as the have the aging old hippies to buy the aging Harley`s–I think they added a new chrome nut and bolt to the new line up–HA HA. They just bought MV Agusta? only time will tell and the pockets of the tax payer.

I am disillusioned with H-D for taking this route. Will there be a H-D czar in Washington next? Expanding government is not the way to grow this once great nation. Asking for a bailout is H-D’s way of saying they believe in Socialism and I can no longer support that. My dream of owning a H-D has shifted just like Scottie’s above. Victory or Star is now my bike of choice! We need to make a stand for free markets and H-D is not!

Heck no!!!!!!! Never was impressed with HD’s market techniques and believe they ripped us off every chance they got. Now let them earn our money, like others are doing. Like Yamaha and Honda best. Wings are best bikes out. Yamaha needs to keep their bikes updated with technology, but Star is doing good things.

Forget saving H-D. I think this could be the swift kick in the nads that Harley needs so it’ll reconsider its business ethics. Another period like the AMF one could do this company some good, and deflate that super-sized ego of theirs. They are not the greatest motorcycle company ever, and they are not “THE” American motorcycle. If anything, I’d hand that honor over to Indian. Now THAT’S a bike I’m lusting after.

If Harley re-thinks their sales strategy, stops letting accountants and bank loan officers sell their bikes (I swear I know more about Harleys than any of their ’sales’ people), and drops their prices by $2000 across the board, they’ll sell more in the first quarter than they did all last year.

scotty is right on..i have 4 harleys in the garage and a vision under my butt..

Why should they…the money they got from the tariff years ago only got squandered on some motorhome that I forget the name all ready.
You don’t buy a H-D motorcycle to RIDE…….just to look at & brag that you have one.

I bought a new Harley this year and put money down,when it came in the dealer tried to raise the price 2500 and that is some of what is wrong with the dealers.Harley puts out a msrp then the dealers try to add to it after they take your down payment!

The problem with HD is their attitude…
“Selling high-end motorcycles to mid-end consumers…”
First they need to understand that they are anything BUT a high-end motorcycle… to say the least.
Then second, with that start treating potential customers with respect…
Third… put some money in R&D and develop a real motorcycle…
If they had that in mind maybe they wouldbn’t need a bail-out… not that I really believe that they do anyway…selling what they call “high-end” at those prices I’m sure they made tons of profit over the years since the projects have ben paid off decades ago…
A V-Rod? Sure, but the rest of their line-up? Come on… Your marketing is fabulous but I am no fool.
enough fooling around with the consumer…

Did any of you who posted here read the report??? The money would only be for Harley Credit corp and Eaglemark savings. It also would only be for people who default on unsecured loans. It’s not for Harley to make motorcycles!!! As for Honda, it STOPPED making VTX 1800’s for 09 because they have to many leftovers from 06, 07, 08’s on the showroom floor. Sounds like Honda making stuff nobody wants!!!

As I understand it Harley is not looking for the bail out but the finance arm is looking for some of the TARP money being given to banks to help make loans easier. Harley Financial is being hit as hard with sub prime non-payers as a lot of other banks. So if you feel the other banks deserve some of the tax payers money, then you’d think Harley Financial should too.

Frankly I think this is a very dangerous road for all the banks and bankers to go down.

Buzz Kanter
American Iron Magazine
http://www.aimag.com

Joe, yes, I realized that this was for the the credit corp., which was my comment about including dealer markups and chrome into the financing. However, that’s part of the whole attitude problem. Take a Road King or Heritage that’s really worth maybe $12k, add on the dealer’s blue sky of $3k-$5k and a bunch of buyer specific parts (”investments”??) that are not important to to a potential buyer at a distress sale and you’ve got a $20k loan on a $10k bike.

I bet they still pull a profit of $50 million for Q4 and total profit for 2008 of $600 million before provision of write-offs. The credit corp. is under the H-D umbrella, not a separate entity.

All I have to say is… “I got a Harley-Davidson. Does that turn you on? Harley-Davidson?” …Kelly from The Bad News Bears.

Harley needs to rethink the market. The bikes are dated and overpriced. No reason to buy a bike worth 12k and have a loan of 25k. Harley got greedy and sold themselves out. Not an icon anymore. After 4 Harleys and loyalty to the bone I sold my bagger and bought a Star. My shirts are now rags. Die Motor Company Die

A lot of the problem those of you that insist on buying foreign products and don’t tell about quality,I have worked them all for the last 50 years they all had their problems. Toyota has just passed GM in sales I think we should all be ashamed of the sellout , I sure am.

Scottie, can’t say I agree with you on this one. It’s not Harley’s prices it’s that the economy tanked and people are defaulting on there loans. If someone loses there job, the first bill they are going to stop paying is for a toy(motorcycle)and they will default on that loan. Weather the bike cost 10k or 20k they most likely can’t afford it and paying for a home they refinanced to many times. Most of the comments here are not about the report and the facts but about bashing Harley and saying there out dated (WRONG). Air-cooled does not equal out dated, there are LOTS of Metrics that are still air cooled but that seems to be over looked here. Still can’t understand the hate for Harley here at this site. I still love motorcycles no matter what brand or style. Guess that’s why I can’t understand it.

@Joe:
Don’t act like you’re the only one here that “loves motorcycles.” We all do, and that’s why we’re here. This particular comment section is for us to give reasoning for our disapproval/approval of giving handouts to Harley-Davidson. It’s pretty clear the majority of riders/bikers viewing this topic are not in favor of such a defining measure. You have no problem defending Harley and attacking Honda, however.

I don’t know what resources you have, but stopping by my local YamaHondaZuki dealer last weekend, they were cracking open their ‘09 inventory, which included ‘09 VTX 1800s. Perhaps this isn’t a corporate decision, and your dealer is only telling you what he wants you to believe.

We know what this “Bailout” is intended for. We know its not to directly cover losses on the floor. That would be more akin to a “buyout,” the other dreaded B word. The reason the loans are so bad is because they will do anything to get people to sign for them. Anyone heard a Harley salesman pitch them the 10 yr/18% apr plan? How ridiculous is that? But it gets a Harley in Joe Schmoe’s garage, and that’s all that matters, apparently, despite the fact it’ll be broken down and leaking oil in 5,000 miles. To tell me that Harley makes an honest profit off of a good product is flat out propaganda. They’re practically stealin money through shady sales tactics for products they wouldn’t sell to their own parents.

For the Harley blowhards, try this sometime: Befriend a Harley salesman, and eventually ask him ‘outside’ a dealership what Harley means to him…you won’t like it.

Wow…I’m not sure if I should be surprised, but I thought there’d be at least 1 person come out in H-D’s defense!
Tough crowd..not that I disagree. As I said earlier (different post)I think 1 bail out every 25 years is sufficient. I wonder if the Sr Management at H-D is keeping an eye on this forum. If not, they should be!

Sorry Quid, didn’t know you knew it all!!! First, I went to the motorcycle show in NY this past weekend and the info was from the Honda people working there so maybe the Honda dealership you are going to are giving you false information to sell you a Honda. Second, Harleys don’t leak oil after 5000 mile or more, my 05 has 39000 mile on it and has been one of the best running bikes I have ever own, and yes I have owned Hondas in the past. Third, I agree that Harley or anyone else for that matter shouldn’t be “bailout” but anytime Harley is mention in these posted it turns into Harley bash time. The subject of this blog was suppost to be about bailout of Harleys credit corp ,NOT about Harley being outdate or leaking oil which is what most of the comments were. You stated you self that ” This particular comment section is for us to give reasoning for our disapproval/approval of giving handouts to Harley-Davidson” and then later bash Harley by saying ” despite the fact it’ll be broken down and leaking oil in 5,000 miles.” You are a HYPOCRITE!! Wasn’t the comment on this page suppost to be about the bailout of the credit corp?? What does Harley’s quality have to do with this blog??I never said I am the only one here who loves motorcycles, DUH, people wouldn’t be on here if they didn’t like bikes Quaid. As far as bashing Honda, I was stating a fact. I don’t know where you live but here in NJ there are BRAND NEW 06,07,08 Hondas on the showroom floors.

One last thing there Quaid, just went on the Honda web site and looked up the VTX 1800, only lists 2008 models, NO 2009’s!!! Guess your Honda dealer must doing “shady sales tactics for products they wouldn’t sell to their own parents” to quote you!!

Alright Joe, knock it off. You seemed so sure of yourself, so even I went to check a local Honda dealer here in NY, and they do in fact have the 2009 VTX1800 (saw it with my own eyes, the mfg date is on the VIN tag), regardless of what the website says, or what the “dealer” you talked to at the show said, because that’s what they are at the shows, dealers. I’m pretty sure Quaid (surprised you managed to spell his name right) was spot on about Harleys; my co-worker’s ‘07 Sportster 1200 was leaking oil from the heads before 4,000 miles, and he says it was the second one he had that happen to. That’s along with the broken speedometer and faulty oil cap. Yeah, sure thing Joe, Harley makes a great product alright. I’m SO sure your “05″ (what, no model? Harley owners are usually proud of their model type) has had 39,000 trouble free miles…because every motorcycle does, right? Who cares if this section is about the Harley financing group? It exists to finance the Harley product, genius! You want to criticize people for being a know-it-all? Re-read your post, big guy, you’re the true hypocrite. Quaid made legitimate points, yet you attack his credibility. You on the other hand, are letting you’re emotions get the better of you, and should rethink your ‘opinions’ before trying to state them as facts. I don’t even usually jump in between like this…I let people be themselves on here, and enjoy reading others’ opinions. But you just went too far, son.

Never ceases to amaze me how motorcyles bring out the best in everyone…especially Harleys.

Guys,

I’m always impressed with the passion– both good and bad– that the Harley brand inspires; some manufacturers would kill for that kind of controversy!

-Basem

Since I was the first here, maybe I can at least sum up my thoughts. I think that:

1. Victory is really taking chances that many of us appreciate. The Vision and Core are great demonstrations about how to think and design.

2. Star has done a really nice job in the cruiser market. For the most part sticking with air-cooled, belt driven bikes. The Liners even throw in aluminum frames and some debatable styling, not to mention brakes.

3. Harley buyers buy Harleys and that’s why the V-Rods sit around. But baby Boomers are fading. I’m 48 and I’ve thought about a Harley for the last ten years, but now I’m looking for something different. I spent $5,000 on a carbon fiber bicycle, so just because I’m buying a cruiser doesn’t mean I’ll accept a sluggish performance and handling.

4. This item was about Harley’s finance unit and that some of us have it right, but I was low balling it on the first go around: Most dealers do not tag their bikes on the floor. If you ask how much an $18,000 Road King or Heritage costs they’ll quote $22,000+. By the time you add some exras and you get ready to sign a deal you’re up to $25,000+ tax and setup on a bike that’s not worth $10,000. The finance unit will take a hit on the “chrome investment” that no one cares about. They will also take a hit on financing the dealer’s profit, the dealer’s setup and fright cost, the state and city sales tax, not to mention the dealer’s $4,000 mark-up.

Sell expensive toys wisely. Buy expensive toys carefully.

I dont think anyone should get any bailout $$ including lenders and auto makers.
I have to make my credit card payment,my car payment,and my Harley payment. Aint no one bailin me out if I cant pay!!!!!!!!!! F’em all! They use my tax $$ to pay the credit card companys credit when I still have to pay interest and pricipal every month. Where’s my intrest on this bail out?? How about the absolve the interest on my car and credit card and I pay just the pricipal? That would be fair, wouldn’t it?

All of the motorcycle manufacturers will be suffering in this economy. I don’t own a HD motorcycle, probably never will. Yet it is a motorcycle produced in the USA and in the long run, if the company stays in business, it might produce a sport bike.

I very much want to say Give ‘em the money, give HD an opportunity to make it through the tough times. However, HD’s insolent attidude toward those who don’t ride HD’s, I believe the company would squander the money on it’s executives, and then shut down the company anyway. It would have been a huge waste of taxpayer money.

Hey Grover, don’t tell me to “Knock it off”!! You don’t run this web page. I’m aloud to state my opinion just like you. If you don’t like it or can’t handle it go somewhere else!!! Seems like your ok with attacking Harleys but don’t attack Honda!!! You say about Honda not making 2009 VTX1800 that you don’t care what the web site says?? Why would the web site lie?? Why would a dealer lie about that?? As far as what model I ride it’s a Super Glide Custom. Didn’t think that was something that was related or need to be said in the post but if it makes you happy to know what I ride there you go. As far as your friend (you have a friend??) Sportser having problems with his bike, I know people that have LOTS of problems with there Hondas. You say who cares about Harley financing group?? That was the subject of this post!!! Thats what should be address here not if Harleys are outdated or have problems. If Basem wants to make a blog on that subject then commenting on that would be right, all I’m saying is stick to the subject of this post genius!!

My predictions weren’t too bad, for once. Just read the 8-K filed with the SEC

predicted quarterly net $50+ million, actual $78 million

predicted annual net $600+ million, actual $658 million

They seem to have a plan, but the financing unit will really hit them hard.

Hate to say i told you so, BUT I DID…! HD not only cutting jobs, but sending american jobs to the foreigners. HD would sell out their own mother to make a buck. I hope they go under and stay there…

I checked out the harleys at the javits bike show last week. I thought i was at a used bike lot. Not of the big tourers were new, they all had over a 1000 miles on them and they looked like crap to. Its a bike show, at least have someone wipe’em down with a rag or duster… And the rocker C (retarded name) showed one of its weak links, all around the ridiculous passenger seat was torn on both sides at the connection point, a re-call in the making…

Simon,

H-D is owned by stockholders who expect the company to be profitable. Unfortunately, the unions thinks that companies like H-D are their playground.

I say we storm the place with our pitch forks & torches in hand. Just like the good ole days…

Just to let Quaid and Grover know, I asked Basem to check with Honda and they are not making VTX1800 for 09! Don’t know where you are seeing these 09 VTX1800’s but these Honda dealers may be doing something shady or you guys may need to get glasses.

Union workers at Harley put a lot of pride into their bikes.
Everyone knows the quality is extremly good.
Its to bad that people bash unions but, the real problem is outsourcing-freetrade. Just think how many people could buy products made here if they worked as some of these companies vendors. Instead of bashing company Unions at GM, Harley, etc, go after these companies that don’t pay crap. No wonder no one can buy anything.
The US needs good paying jobs and no free trade. Think how much everyone could buy if they made a decient wage like union workers.

WOW! Did the subject change or what? I really feel like this is bash H-D bikes & owners & riders of H-D to death. Yea, I’m a “Baby Boomer” and proud of it. I have worked hard for what I have, and YES I LOVE MY HARLEY! I feel most of these sour words spoken are spoiled brats that have had too much help from their parents. Get a LIFE & RIDE a Harley for once. NO BAIL OUT FOR H-D.
Harleymom

Thank you Roxie,
You are right on the money about trying a HD before commenting on it.
HD is one of the few companies that didn’t go overseas. Don’t you think its about time to support the companies that are in the US. If they want to borrow money such as Auto companies I say yes…banks got money and are not accountable to no one….what kinda fairness is that…

Living in India i have personally never had the “Harley Davidson experience”,but have admired and been a fan of the bike for its sheer elegant and robust structure.I personally own a “125 cc Bajaj wind”, a toy in comparison to “Harley Horsepower” and always wondered the experience of riding a “Harley”.
The whole automobile Industry is facing a downturn including in India but it would be sad if a “motorcycle Icon” like “Harley Davidson” faces bankruptcy and oblivion akin to the “Indian”.
I personally feel the Government should bail out “Harley Davidson” since it has become a part of the “American Image”.

I talked with a F&I manager a few months ago and was told that the HD sales were doing pretty well since HD dropped the required credit score to 560 in order to have a loan granted through HD credit. It appears they set themselves up like the housing market. I had another call from a dealer friend saying if wanted to buy a Harley there were about 200 going through the auction, some 1/2 price. I stopped owning Harley’s in 2005 when I purchased a new Goldwing. I have never looked back. I would not consider owning another one unless they can build something to compete with the Wing and I don’t think that will ever happen. The 2007 and up run so hot they have programed the rear cylinder to cut off at stops and a HD dealer friend of mine said this is a band aid for a real problem and the solution is a remake and water cooling. Even he rides Hondas. The dealers also ripped the public off for many years selling 2-6K above MSRP with a attitude I might add. We need a real American made motorcycle but I am not sure we will see this unless our country goes in a better direction. They may be assembled here but most parts are made in Japan…

No the government shouldnt bailout H-D,they should’nt bail out any corporation. I drive a metric and anybody that does knows what a harley snob is. And H-D bikes are for prestige not practicality. The reason H.D. financial institution is in trouble is loaning like the sub prime home loans are for people that couldnt afford the loan to begin with. When the government starts bailing out are social security system (yes are money investment) then they can think about bailing out corporations.

All I can say is NO to a H.D. bailout. You build over priced and over rated motorcycles over time it will bite you in the butt. Had a Harley once and will NEVER own another one again. Have a Royal Star Venture and love it–Maybe a Goldwing next. Joe, I guess you have a trouble free Harley–RARE—Harley needs to rethink itself–CAN WILLIE G. like Ford did to a Ford.

i say sure, bail em out.. so long as Harley Davidson agrees to bail those that own one who’ve lost their jobs and are at the moment unable to make the payments

GM and Chrysler are the only brands on the list of cars/trucks my family and I will never, ever buy. If Harley gets bailed, they’ll get added to the list.

Corporate Welfare Bums, the lot of them.

All you HD lovers must love those Showa forks huh. American made yeah okay. Why would I spend 20k for an over weight, underpowered air cooled land slug. I already have a oil leaking air compressor in the garage next to my 2006 GSX-R 750 and I am 51 and can own what I wish. “H-undred D-ollars is not on the list. No bailouts!!

Harley`s biggest problem is they forgot where they came from . Until all these corprate bozos took over they were affordable . There is nothing wrong with the unions .If you like bashing them think about this ,Ford trucks are made in the US by union workers .GM trucks are made in Mexico by workers who are paid $2.50 an hour . Now ask yourself if the reason for the price of an American made Ford is so high because of union wages then why are GMC and Chevy trucks the same price as Fords ?There are no tariffs on Mexican imports so where is all that money going ? It`s going in the pockets of big business execs not American workers . At least Harley is still making bikes here unlike Victory who is planning to move to Mexico and layoff American workers .

Harley went whining to Congress in the 70’s and got tariffs on all imported Motorcycles, I was about to buy a Honda SuperSport and the price went up almost by half. Now, because Harley want’s to keep making the same damn piece of —- it has been making since 1935 we have to bail them out again… I just wish I had a vote…
I guess I don’t want to see people out of work but I would like to see if America can actually make a decent motorcycle and find a way to convince Harley that innovation doesn’t come out of a can of paint and it’s not made of chrome.

Let ‘em die. They don’t make the best quality of bike anyway and they are very overpriced and underperfoming.

R.I.P. HD.

No – Harley Davidson should of never gotten a bail out. Their bikes are overpriced, and anything with the HD logo is overpriced. A friend of mine owns a HD and we went to some of their open houses events during this summer and they charged $5 / $10 to get into their events. I don’t own a Harley, got two Kawasaki’s (ZX1000 & Vulcan 1700) and went to open house events (Brockton Cycles, Jem Motorsports, Poole Motorsports, & Pilgrim Powersports) and they did not charge to get in, the food, the live entertainemnt, and the stunts shows were excellent. HD just totally blew my mind, it’s bad enough to pay to get into the HD shows, but now to hear they got a bail out, no wonder this country is in a financial crisis. They got idiots in washington who were paid off for HD to get a hand out!

H.D. as I have said is overpriced and over rated. There should be no bail out for H.D. G.M Dodge etc. They did not listen to the people ond trouble caught them. H.D. and bad loans to the people who could not pay for their H.D.–A SUB PRIME LOAN FACTOR. Another point, JOE is a hard core H.D. rider–He will not listen to facts–But, he rides a motorcycle. Joe have nice ride–It is cold here–ALL HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR–a fact the Gov. will never go broke only the people do.

I know 2 guys that bought used Harleys from our local dealer this past summer ..they love their Harleys .
Funny thing is they both went to Honda first and tried to buy , but were turned down by Honda Credit .
due to the fact .they both have told me their credit smells real bad .
I understand what Harley is doing I think …but it will always come back to bite them in the ass …give it a year or two , we`ll see more repo Harleys than ever .then what ? and chances are when they get them back they will be leaking oil and have been run hot .
One other point …I try real hard not to bash Harley I`ve owned one …one was enough …I now ride a Honda ..I love to ride not spend all my time working on my ride like when I owned the Harley .
Hey here`s hope for unemployed Harley guys …real soon you can land a job repoing your favorite bike !

I have owned several bikes in my life-time,the last three being Harleys. Tell the truth,shame the devil,….I was distressed by the bail-out,especially knowing that some of this is driven by unions,no matter what they tell you. In my local dealerships,they won’t even post the price on large touring bikes,and the sportsters are going for 9G’s plus. That is a rip-off! If Harley got all of this money from you and I,…then it should be appropriate for them to put a few things at a decent price,..if they really want to sell bikes. My next bike won’t be a Harley,and perhaps my wife and I will ride down the road more comfortable as well,with more money in our pockets from a decent deal. Shiny side up,ya’ll

Harley-Davison motor cycle company have been bail out years ago by the federal government using tax papers money. majority of american didn’t benfit from the bail out on Harley-Daviso. Except, Harley-Davison Employees got a raise within a year after the bail-out. Harley-Davison got to go. It has to much cheap materal on it. Overpriced.